the Truth Flag, from Flickr
and the quote for the day, from Metro
“I just remember thinking, ‘I just brought terror to someone under the American flag’.”
Sergeant Timothy John Westphal, 31, of Denver, 18th Infantry Brigade, 1st Infantry Division. In Tikrit on year-long tour beginning February 2004
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raincoaster 
I don’t know if either the Stars and Stripes or Union Jack will ever recover from the shame of the war crimes committed under them. I am no longer British, my flags are an bhratach naisiunta – the Irish tricolour and the Cross of St George. Although war crimes have been committed under these two, there is at least a sense of new beginnings about them
my flag is the Constitution, and if anyone had been waving and reading it in the last seven years . . . . well, it’s a bit late to play what if on that count.
Yep.
I particularly feel for the military; it was not their decision to go in there, and men and women signed up to serve their countries, not to serve the cheap political goals of a bunch of ruthless opportunists. The military should never be confused with a cheap enforcer.
the problem with al this is it gives the impression that the world was perfect until evil,America and its snickering side kick Britain messed it up . It was not and isolatioanism by the West would be a disaster. Its true that removing the genocidal fascist turned out not to have been the best of calls but many in Iraq are still very glad it was done . The protests always seem to be from nations that actually live under the protection of NATO but do not take any responsibility for the world`s future imagining they could sit there is holier than though peace if they were not under the protection of . NATO. AS they choose not to play they do not have a say .
The position of nihilistic isolationaism is usually reckoned a far right one here it was proposed by Enoch Powell and others .
I’m not an isolationist, but I do believe in severe critical thought before engaging in any foreign intervention for exactly the point Newmania cited – engaging in reshaping the world – and I also believe that a nascent neo-fascist element in government often subverts critical thought – the two reasons I’ve opposed this war since long before day one.
And if that isn’t a classically conservative position, then that’s another example of just how culturally illiterate the Western world is.
Newmania, you’re running from a false start. No-one claimed the world was perfect. Rather, many people said that precisely because of its imperfection, one should perhaps pause for rational thought before racing out and £µ©λing with it.
Of course, rational thought is not what the Bush administration is good at. Particularly if the result of rational thought conflicts with predetermined policy, their “philosophy,” or moneyed interests. Or in the case of Iraq, all three PLUS Oedipan personal ambition.
I believe that Blair was dosed with a CIA gas that caused him to hallucinate for a few weeks that he was the Iron Lady. Upon recovery he found himself in the position of the mild little forger who gets handcuffed to someone named “Crazy Butch the Nun Slaughterer” on the prison bus. The only option is to pray it’s gonna be a short ride. Unfortunately it turned out to be a Mobius merry-go-round.
Do you feel the invasion was a mistake, Newmania?
If so, what do you feel would have been “the best of calls”?
Indeed, there are some things it is best to be conservative about and deploying the military overseas is one of those things. newmania, the very fact that we are having this conversation is clear evidence that not ALL the protests come from nations who are not a part of NATO. All of the nations represented here n the quote, the photo, and the comments are, in fact, NATO members. It is our responsibility to consider such things deeply.
Sweet Neo Con
Oh, sweet Neo Con,
What path have you led them on?
Oh, sweet Neo Con,
Is it time for the atom bomb?
You parade around in costume,
Expecting to be believed
But as the body bags stack up,
We believe we’ve been deceived
The horror you’ve unleashed,
Will backfire with more grief
When will you ever learn,
Sweet Neo Con,
as the world burns?
Oh, sweet Neo Con,
What path have you led them on?
Oh, sweet Neo Con,
Is it time for the atom bomb?
Oh, sweet Neo Con,
What path have you led them on?
Oh, sweet Neo Con,
Is it time to drop the bomb?
How come you’re so wrong?
My sweet neo-con,
where’s the money gone,
in the Pentagon.
It’s liberty for all,
democracy’s our style,
unless you are against us,
then it’s prison without trial.
Sorry, forgot the attribution for that. Lyrics to Rolling Stones’ Song “Sweet Neo Con” By Last Night in Little Rock, on ‘TalkLeft’
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:qaXoJ1LzpmoJ:talkleft.com/new_archives/012241.html+talkleft+swwet+neo+con&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk
R – Everyone is a member of NATO when it comes to asking the US to look after them . Up to and including the Germans .Not everyone in it is supportive of it though or sends its troops . These nations are despised in the world .The UK cannot afford this its well being depends on international investment in and out . It is vastly more international than any other country in the world and in any case cannot yet be weaned of the need for some respect. Stewing in isolated and impotent moral splendour is less an option for us than most Imagine a world without America , you would be amazed at how many students would say ” Super ” This sort of childishness is infuriating and disingenuous
On Iraq overall. It is entirely clear that Iraq is better off now than before despite the mischievous efforts of NGO`s to misrepresent the position as other than it is . I am happy in my own mind that Oil had nothing to do with it directly . Oil has flowed throughout wars since OPEC noticed what using it politically did for their profits in the seventies. The malign motives therefore ascribed to Bush by his enemies seem to me to be pretty nutty. I am supported in this by influential writers in the left like Nick Coen who have criticised the asymmetrical critical faculties of their comrades .
Whether it is right that the US should be so proactive in helping countries towards democracy or not ,is a judgement call . Our interests in such an aim for security and economically are part of it , our moral duty , our risks and Government mandates to spend money and lives are to be balanced .In this case the risks were underestimated but the possible rewards to the area were huge . I would have gone . The Conservative Party would have gone with or without WMD s . Yes there were protests but they were far smaller than the protests about the ban on fox hunting . It was the only call for the UK
From a UK point of view I do not have to opine on Liberal Empicism ( and Bush and his beliefs are startlingly Liberal by Middle East standards) Britain could not let it only meaningful ally down . We have quite literally no others that count . Australia punches above its weight as does Israel but its all about America really .Milliband the new Foreign Sec accepts this and his mistaken attempt to suggest a shift was immediately withdrawn. A Party that does not make serious provision for our defence cannot govern here . We know this from the suicidal unilateralist that infected the Labour party decades ago
. What right centre bloggers are suggesting was that an exit and post win strategy was lacking and the people we have in abundance in our civil service were ignored . This was a constant feature of the Blairbrown Government , Presidency we call ed it , (why the president is a tiny figure by comparison. )
It has been a remarkable fact that the the Blair Brown period has been characterise by policies that were reasonable in their own socialist lights but appallingly delivered , DEFRA, Credits , NHS Pfis for example. I see the Iraq problem as similar .
In other words the UK was obliged to support . Right to do so but should have been a better ally in advising on the wa6ty forward for Iraq. As a final back position I must stress that it was the terrorists who brought it about by the murder of thousands of innocents not the West. This superficial self loathing is swivel eyed in the extreme and treating the Flag with disrespect is the start of collaboration .
So…you gained respect by engaging with Iraq?
The UK and the US are not the only members of NATO, and the action in Iraq is not a NATO one but a “coalition of the willing” which shed members since the very day it entered the region.
I believe that Blair saw the politically golden opportunity to put his nation at the head of a game, even one that he might lose, and decided that the political potential was worth the human risk. This was the exact opposite of the moral choice. It was deeply, deeply cynical and perfectly Blair. And now he’s going into the Middle East to solve problems there…because hey, he’s got a track record: he caused a lot of them.
Agree with you about the Socialist policies in the Blair regime: how they could possibly have screwed up some of those things as badly as they did remains a source of awe and mystery. Are there no competent people there, or no non-criminals in the civil service?
No-one who has not served in the military has the right to tell anyone in the military how to think about his/her own experiences on a mission. They served: they’ve earned their say. If you think that people who fought in Basra and Baghdad are “swivel-eyed collaborators” I dare you to tell them to their faces. In Helmand.
1 So…you gained respect by engaging with Iraq?
Well yes obviously . We showed that we are able to export force and use it . Few countries belong to this club in truth . not with Liberal democracies especially but then they are not the problem. You have said this yourself by the way.
2 The UK and the US are not the only members of NATO,
I appreciate that .
3and the action in Iraq is not a NATO one but a “coalition of the willing” which shed members since the very day it entered the region.
The coalition of the unwilling didn’t make it eh ? NATO was a grouping aimed at the Warsaw Pact it is now a forum for America and its allies . Official membership is not especially meaningful and the fact that Spain dropped out because they were scared did not impress anyone much here. Bombs have the opposite effect on us
4 I believe that Blair saw the politically golden opportunity to put his nation at the head of a game, even one that he might lose, and decided that the political potential was worth the human risk. This was the exact opposite of the moral choice. It was deeply, deeply cynical and perfectly Blair. And now he’s going into the Middle East to solve problems there…because hey, he’s got a track record: he caused a lot of them.
I agree-ish , I have always suspected that his motives were not unmixed with something of the sort . The effect of the Falklands on Thatcher’s period would have been the model and the fact he was kicked out of domestic policy by Brown. But if he had poor motives he had good outcomes . The Conservatives supported the war on the basis of supporting our ally and only true friend in the world .( As in willing and able to help us if we need it.. others are friendly of course )
5No-one who has not served in the military has the right to tell anyone in the military how to think about his/her own experiences on a mission. They served: they’ve earned their say. If you think that people who fought in Basra and Baghdad are “swivel-eyed collaborators” I dare you to tell them to their faces. In Helmand.
Bollocks , what on earth makes you think the military know fuck all about anything . They don`t have to join they do it because they want to and they like it . I don`t have this sentimental thing about soldiers . We are all going to die and maudlin sycophancy to the uniform is just about where fascism starts . They have job to do they either do it well or not ( Ours usually do it exceptionally well) . What they think about the state of the world is of no more interest than anyone else view and we do not , in this country, have this “ Hero “ thing . We have a “Loyalty to your mates “thing . That’s (one of the reasons) why you get a little less showboating and a bit more done . I `d love to see what your average British NCO would make if this display . Not very much.
Having been raised on bases, newmania, I’d love to see what your average British NCO would make of your face in a couple of minutes on the parade ground.
another tragic case of paraquat poisoning